Re: Датировка старейшей египетской звездной карты


Автор сообщения: gorm
Дата и время сообщения: 02 October 2002 at 01:26:59:

В ответ на сообщение: Датировка старейшей египетской звездной карты

Да, я читал упомянутую статью, у меня есть ксерокс - она сомнительна. В январе она обсуждалась и в листе истории астрономии. Автор, так же как и Фоменко подступается к задаче имея отдаленные понятия об египетской астрономической символике, но зато имея свое собственное мнение о "правильной хронологии". Кроме того, выяснилось, что автор и в астрономических расчетах положений планет наврал.

А что касается предсказаний затмений на 3500 лет назад - здесь почти все верно. Погрешность в определении DT для этого времени может составлять пару-тройку часов, что не позволяет определить, было ли затмение полным в данной местности. Ближайшее более ли менее надежно датированное затмение на которое можно опереться было через 5 столетий. Однако предложенные затмения невидимы в Египте при любых разумных флуктуациях DT (надо порядка 12 часов).


Hi Stephen,

The link to FAQ web page

http://www.moses-egypt.net/STAR-MAP_s2-FAQ.asp

at the bottom of

http://www.moses-egypt.net/STAR-MAP_s1.asp

gives more information.

The author does appear to have used modern luni-solar and planetary
theories and is aware of the Delta T issue but has applied them to the
year 1534 BC (not 1543 BC mentioned on his introductory web page). I
mentioned the possibility yesterday that the date may have been in error
but I had then neglected to follow this up.

For that year, and the following year 1533 BC, Redshift 3 indeed
predicts numerous close planetary groupings of interest (all dates will
be given in the Julian calendar).

For the proposed date (May 1534 BC) the planetary configuration supposed
to be represented on the Senmut ceiling (Sun & Moon above Orion, with
Jupiter, Saturn, Venus and Mercury to the East and Mars to the West) can
only be reproduced in part by RedShift 3. Most of the planets (but NOT
Mars, which was in Capricornus) were then indeed grouped in the
Taurus/Gemini region but never in the sequence suggested in the Senmut
ceiling. On 21 May 1534 BC (the date of the solar eclipse) Saturn was in
fact to the West of the Sun.

IF the Senmut ceiling is a representation of this event then it must
have been calculated as the proximity of the Sun would render it
invisible to the naked eye. I am not convinced by the author's claim
that Egyptian astronomers could have observed this event during the day
light hours from deep wells or inclined shafts as I thought that this
19th-century astronomical myth was refuted long ago.

The solar eclipses of that year were both invisible from Egypt.

21 May 1534 BC Australia & Southern Pacific.

14 November 1534 BC Northern Pacific & Western part of North America

Regards,

========================================================
* Robert H. van Gent * Tel/Fax: 00-31-30-2720269 *
* Zaagmolenkade 50 * *
* 3515 AE Utrecht * E-mail: r.h.vangent@astro.uu.nl *
* The Netherlands * *
********************************************************
* Homepage: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/homepage.htm *
========================================================


__________________________
Dear Stephen,

The planet Mars is not shown on Senmut's ceiling. The author has made an
error by identifying the decan Tjemes en Khentet (_Tms n xntt_) as the
planet Mars. This decan is listed in many other decan lists where Mars is
listed. At this time in Egyptian history, Mars was called Horakhti
(Horus-of-the-Horizon). The planets are also listed separately from the
decans in every list I've seen.

The author also errs in identifying the decan Aret (_'rt_) and its god, the
Eye of Horus, as the eclipse, the sun and moon. The Eye can represent the
moon, but it can represent many other things. In this case, it is not the
moon. In addition, the decans on this list, including Aret, are all written
with star determinatives, which was not used for the sun.

Sincerely,

Joanne Conman
_______________

Hi,

The Senmut ceiling star map has of course been studied before and it may
be of interest to point out that

Christian Leitz, _Studien zur =E4gyptische Astronomie_, 2nd ed.
(Otto Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden, 1991 [=3D =C4gyptologische
Abhandlungen, nr. 49]).

devotes a whole chapter (pp. 35-48) to this star map.

He too reads the star map as a record of a visible planetary grouping
(without the planet Mars, which he believes was invisible as it was not
mentioned) but dates this event to early November 1463 BC.

Leitz does not read a record of a solar eclipse in the Senmut ceiling,
nor even a lunar and a solar position and he does not infer that Jupiter
(which he places in Cancer) and Saturn were observed in close proximity
to each other

Leitz noted that the reign of Thutmosis III (when the ceiling is assumed
to have been made) is believed to have started either in 1504, 1490 or
1479 BC and probably lasted about 20 years. Leitz therefore only
investigated the period from -1505 to -1455.

Regards,
________
Dear Robert and Stephen,

I sent this message yesterday and it showed up in my mailbox, so I assumed
it was posted to the list:

"The planet Mars is not shown on Senmut's ceiling. The author has made an
error by identifying the decan Tjemes en Khentet (_Tms n xntt_) as the
planet Mars. This decan is listed in many other decan lists where Mars is
listed. At this time in Egyptian history, Mars was called Horakhti
(Horus-of-the-Horizon). The planets are also listed separately from the
decans in every list I've seen.

"The author also errs in identifying the decan Aret (_'rt_) and its god, the
Eye of Horus, as the eclipse, the sun and moon. The Eye can represent the
moon, but it can represent many other things. In this case, it is not the
moon. In addition, the decans on this list, including Aret, are all written
with star determinatives, which was not used for the sun."

The author's argument for Tjemes en Khentet to be Mars retrograde in the FAQ
section is not convincing. He does not explain the many occurrences of the
appearance of this decan on lists where Mars is clearly represented. His
take on Khentet, which he writes as "hntt," translates as "traveling
upstream," and understands to mean retrograde motion is another problem.

This word means "(female) Southern Traveler/Voyager" and it is part of the
name of the three immediately preceding decans, translated: The One Before
the (female) Southern Traveler, the Upper (female) Southern Traveler, and
the Lower (female) Southern Traveler. In addition, there are two other
decans further along the list that are named The Upper (male) Southern
Traveler and the Lower (male) Southern Traveler. Since the author accepts
the other (correct) planetary identifications, he is left with at least four
other fixed stars retrograding.

The author's take on the decan Aret as the sun is more controversial IMO,
and he does not even address this in his FAQ section.

Sincerely,

Joanne Conman
_____________

Hi all,

A follow-up on last weekend's discussion on the Senmut ceiling star map.

One of the links on the Senmut ceiling star map web page leads to the
home page

http://www.moses-egypt.net/default.asp

of the author of this essay, Ove von Spaeth, and clicking on from there
it becomes evident that the redating of the Senmut ceiling star map is
only one episode in a larger project of redating the whole chronology of
the New Kingdom Period of Egypt that the author plans to publish in a
5-volume study on the life and times of Moses.

The author is convinced, cf chapter 1 of volume 1 at URL

http://www.moses-egypt.net/moses_e1chapter1.asp

, that the birth year of Moses can be accurately dated to 1534 BC from
the testimony of the Jewish astrologer Abrabanel who in 1484 AD claimed
that Moses was born three years after a great conjunction of the planets
in the sign of Pisces. I see no discussion on whether the Egyptians or
the Old Testament Jews recognized the importance of such conjunctions or
the concept of zodiacal signs and if I remember correctly Abrabanel was
actually not referring to a grand conjunction of ALL planets but only to
the "grand conjunction" of Jupiter & Saturn.

As the author believes that the Pharaoh's daughter who raised Moses was
the future Queen Hatshepsut, then all historical dates linked to
Hatshepsut and other 18th Dynasty rulers would have to be shifted
backwards in time to make them correspond with his Moses chronology.

The redating of the Senmut ceiling star map appears to be one of the
first victims of the author's chronological adjustments and I fear that
several more will follow in the near future.

Regards,

========================================================
* Robert H. van Gent * Tel/Fax: 00-31-30-2720269 *
* Zaagmolenkade 50 * *
* 3515 AE Utrecht * E-mail: r.h.vangent@astro.uu.nl *
* The Netherlands * *
********************************************************



935. Датировка старейшей египетской звездной карты - Дмитрий Гусев 00:36 02.10.02 (2)
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